Legitimate Rape - is there such a thing? - Page 2

See, I think Akin is a flippin' hero because he has done more the the pro-abortion movement than anyone else in the last 30 to 40 years. At least he is intellectually honest!

I think the people who say abortion is wrong except in the case of incest or rape are being hypocritical. Anti-abortionists say that abortion is wrong because it is the killing of a baby. Well if a conception occurs after a rape it isn't a baby? If conception occurs after incest it isn't a baby? How is it okay to kill those babies but not others?

Oh, I get it. Supposedly the babies can be killed because the woman wasn't willingly having sex. So, it is okay to kill a baby if the woman didn't willingly have sex but if she had consensual sex then the woman is supposed to be punished and forced to carry the pregnancy to term. What about a woman who is married to an abuser? Lets say she has to carefully plan her escape in order to not get killed by him. Until she can effect her escape she willingly has intercourse with him. Unknown to her, he suspects she is going to leave him so he tampers with her birth control pills so she'll get pregnant and, in his mind, have to stay with him or at very least he will always have some form of access to her (through 'his' child.) Is an abortion okay then?

Some people would say "yes" - that it is too emotionally and physically dangerous for a woman to continue the pregnancy in that "abusive husband" circumstance - even though she was married and even though she willingly had intercourse.

But then where does that lead us?
 

It leads us to strangers being arbiters of a very private, very personal, very painful decision that a woman has to make for herself, for each pregnancy. But anti-abortionists don't see it that way. They think they can write laws that cover every situation, every choice and that the government even has a SAY in this situation! Who really is to say when it is too emotionally or physically painful for a woman to continue a pregnancy, except for that woman?

Should women be counseled against coercion? Of course, but few women under those circumstances will have the where with-all to report their abuser. I believe most of the time that coerced women go ahead with the abortion is because the abortion clinic isn't going to do anything about the situation anyway - they don't report when an under-aged girl is seeking an abortion and the biological father is an adult, nor do they report when a woman says she is there because the biological father will physically abuse her unless she has the procedure. Abortion clinics say that if they report then women won't come to them so it is a double-edged sword.

Anyway, I'm all for intellectual honesty. If you're against abortion BE against abortion in every circumstance. If you're against abortion except in certain circumstances (or the flipside, for abortion except in certain circumstances) then admit, you really don't have a say in this matter and the decision needs to be left up to the woman - and the woman alone.

I think most people who are anti-abortion are really anti-woman. They don't believe women have the capacity to make this choice for themselves. That they come to the decision to end a pregnancy lightly. They believe that if a woman was not chaste/ biblical/ obedient enough to wait for marriage, then they need to be responsible for their actions. If the woman WAS responsible, and used birth control, they don't believe that is being responsible (hence, many also want to take away our access to birth control). If they know they cannot raise the child & cannot cope with the pregnancy for whatever reason and want to end it, and make the responsible choice to abort, they also don't see that as "responsible". The only way they see a woman taking responsibility is to carry that child and either raise it or adopt it out.

If the child is a result of rape or incest, that is forcing the woman to experience that rape for an entire 9 months, as her body is continuously invaded.

Cookie, I get what you are saying about intellectual honesty, but SOME people are pro-life and will give an exception in cases of rape or incest because they have some kernel of empathy for the woman. That said, they will still try everything to make it so hard for the woman to get that abortion anyway. And, I think it's really just a lot of lip service so they might not sound so "extreme."

What it boils down to for me - I think pro-life people think abortion is about the baby. It is not. It is about the woman - the living, breathing person who has a life now, who is on this planet now, who has rights. It is about what is best for HER. What is best for the child is not a factor whatsoever. And that is why pro choice people and pro life people can't see eye to eye on the matter, in my opinion. I care about the person in crisis next to me - not a clump of cells growing inside her that might ruin her life.

I agree about the part of not trusting women to make the right decision - so I have to trust a woman to make the right decision in terms of gender selection abortion, too. While I find it a distasteful practice, I really can't speak for a woman who is making that choice (nor for women who have to choose to do selective reduction in the number of children she is carrying during one pregnancy.)

However, I can't agree that a pregnancy is "a clump of cells". I think we've not gotten further in the abortion debate by not agreeing to certain terms. To me, a pregnancy occurs at implantation. Without implantation, "conception" doesn't matter. The product of a human pregnancy is a baby - a human baby. Pregnancies end only one of two ways - in either a live birth or a dead baby. Whether or not there is a dead baby can be because of intentional actions or unintentional ones (some people would say the same is true in the case of a live birth). I believe that parents make choices for their children all the time. While I don't think parents rights are always primary, I do think before a child is born - separate from the woman's body - the only person who CAN make a choice is the woman. After that baby is separate from a woman's body, other factors come into play like child protection policies and medical decisions for the health and welfare of the separate human being.

Cookie - I agree wtih you that a pregnancy begins at implanation. I get incredibly irritated with these lawmakers and people who believe that life begins at conception. Eggs and sperm meet ALL THE TIME but - if there is no implantation - there is no pregnancy. Women do not go into the in-vitro fertilization clinic, get a few fertilized eggs placed inside them, and leave telling people "Yay! I'm pregnant!"   No, they leave HOPING that one of the eggs will implant, and that they will BECOME pregnant. So these people trying to push these "personhood" bills or claiming that life begins at conception don't even look at the science.

I agree that abortion for gender selection is all sorts of wrong, but I also believe that it would be exceedingly rare. And hard to legislate - a woman would not tell that that is the reason for the abortion so, again, it comes to trusting her to make the right choice for herself.

Some people mistakenly believe that birth control pills cause abortions, hence many lawmakers are trying to outlaw them. That is not the case at all, of course. People can "believe" that life begins at conception, but they sure can't legislate that people can't get BCP or morning after pills on the basis of them causing an abortion, because a fertilized egg is not a pregnancy to begin with.

How stupid can this man be? I've got 2 kids that debunk the "I don't want to get pregnant so my uterus went on vacation" theory.

As far what a woman wants to do with her pregnancy, that is not the decision of anyone other than the woman. Nobody else has to live with the results of the decision, whatever the choice may be. The details surrounding the conception are absolutely moot and an option can't be forced on someone because of the sexual relationship.

I would be happy if he never spoke again. I am dumber for having heard his spiel!! That is a highly accusatory phrase, he is assuming that a woman can 'ask to be raped' and that is just plain WRONG!

This was a common belief years ago!  I remember a priest in our high school that gave a talk on abortion and said that you can't become pregnant when raped.  Even being 15 or 16 I knew what he said was utter bulls**t.  Thank heavens for the "Our Bodies, Our Selves" book of the 1970's!  I knew you certainly could become pregnant, and many years later dated a guy that never had actual intercourse with a woman and got her pregnant!  He was in complete denial until his son came out looking exactly like him!!  All I have to say is "SCARY" that this kind of thinking still exists.  Stupid!!!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormy 

Thank heavens for the "Our Bodies, Our Selves" book of the 1970's!  

I still have my copy! I read it completely by the time I was 14 or 15. I remember in my high school "Relationships" class, my teacher got kind of irritated with me because I obviously wasn't paying attention. I couldn't stand her, and I already knew what she was covering. So when we spoke after class I told her I was doing other coursework in her class because she wasn't telling me anything I didn't already know. She didn't believe me. Next day, I brought in that book & plopped it on her desk. She let me do my other coursework in her class....